The Big Picture

Breeders has reached its fourth and final season, with time jumps and new challenges for the Worsley family, but their love for each other keeps them together. Co-creator Martin Freeman shares that the plan was always to take the characters up until Luke’s 18th and Ava’s 16th year, exploring the scope of childhood and adolescence. The show aims to present a truthful depiction of family life, with flawed parents who shouldn’t be demonized, and Freeman hopes it resonates with viewers and allows them to see themselves without judgment.

[Editor’s note: The following contains some spoilers for Season 4 of Breeders.]In the 10-episode fourth and final season of Breeders, five years have passed and Paul (Martin Freeman) and Ally (Daisy Haggard) are more on the verge of splitting up than ever, with an 18-year-old Luke (Oscar Kennedy) having to handle a life-changing bombshell and a 16-year-old Ava (Zoë Athena) wanting to carve out her own path. While the challenges seem insurmountable, the Worsleys have never turned away from tough times before, and even if they’ve lost their cool once or twice in the process, their love for each other has always kept them together.

During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, Freeman (who is also a co-creator of the series) talked about why it was the right time to bring closure to this story, achieving the goal of wanting to make a series about family that was truthful, why parents shouldn’t be demonized for not being perfect, creating this family dynamic alongside co-star Haggard, and how he feels about where they’ve left things with this family. He also talked about his time in the Marvel Cinematic Universe and his uncertainty about what his future there may hold, as well as working with Jenna Ortega on Miller’s Girl.

This interview was conducted prior to the SAG-AFTRA strike.

Collider: At what point did you know and decide that this would be the end of the series? Was that something that you were always thinking to do with Season 4, or was that a conversation after Season 3? How did that come about?

MARTIN FREEMAN: It was a very early conversation many years ago. Once we had sussed out the age difference between Luke and Ava, we knew that we were gonna go until Luke was 18 and Ava was 16, and we knew that we would have time jumps for their ages. That was always the plan. We didn’t know the specifics of what would be happening or what bombshells they would be dropping. But at the beginning of Series 4, I’m about to be a grandparent. Luke has told us he’s gonna have a baby. We didn’t know that, necessarily, but we knew the age that we wanted to take them up to because that’s a big scope of childhood and adolescence that you’re taking them through. It’s interesting to see families go through that, with how our parents change and how they get better at it. Kids growing up into young adults, we always thought was good dramatic fodder and comedy fodder.

Image via FX Networks

Did you have an end point in mind, for where Paul and Ally would end up? Was that something you always knew and were working toward?

FREEMAN: You know, I can’t remember what we always knew. I think we always wanted them to stay together, in spite of the roller coaster that they might be on, which is pretty much the roller coaster that every couple I’ve ever met is on, and every couple I’ve ever been a part of is on. We knew that they love each other, and we knew, at the end of it, that we wanted them to be a stable, loving family. Sometimes it felt like a cop out, if they split up and divorced when the times were tough. If the audience went on this journey with them, and if they like Ally and Paul, the reward should be that Ally and Paul stay together. Ultimately, they’re good friends, they’re lovers, they are in love, and they also enjoy each other’s company.

When you look back on the series as a whole, and you think about what you hoped it could be when you started all of this, do you feel like it ultimately turned out how you imagined it and wanted it to? Was there anything that particularly surprised you about it?

FREEMAN: That’s tricky because, in my brain, I’m not sure what I hoped it would be, other than the show we were trying to make. I never really knew how many people would watch it. I still don’t know how many people watch it. And I don’t know how many people love it or not. But we just wanted to make a show that was truthful to what we had been talking about, which was making something that was emotional, funny, dramatic, moving, and let parents see themselves in a way that wasn’t forgiving and not judgmental for losing your shit, which apparently you’re not supposed to do. I didn’t get that memo. Apparently, you’re not supposed to do that anymore, in the last 15 years. No one told the previous 300,000 years of the human race. So, I wanted that to not be demonized.

Image via FX Networks

You’re just not supposed to let other people know that you lose your shit. You’re supposed to keep that a secret.

FREEMAN: I know. It’s so interesting, isn’t it? It’s so schizophrenic. At the same time, in our culture, we’re supposed to be talking about mental health the entire time. I’m amazed that me and you haven’t talked to each other about mental health. People talk about it every 16 seconds. At the same time, in the most important thing you will do as a parent, i.e. bring up children, you’re still somehow supposed to lie, like it’s 1953. It’s a very weird thing that we do. Even though we’re talking about mental health, weirdly, bringing up kids is just really easy and fantastic, all the time. That’s a ludicrous idea. It’s not that it’s not wonderful and easily the thing that I’m proudest of in my life, but it’s called family. What I’m amazed about is that anyone who’s grown up in a family, which is the vast majority of humans, knows that stuff happens. That’s called being alive. And so, showing that shouldn’t be as odd as it is. Show those three-dimensional aspects shouldn’t be that much of a conversation, but it is, evidently, because that’s what we’re asked about on this show. You don’t see it often enough, clearly, but I think it’s fairly straightforward. You can love someone while also shouting at them. Those two things can exist, at the same time.

What have you most enjoyed about the journey that you’ve taken with Daisy Haggard, throughout these seasons? This relationship has had so many ups and downs, with both them and their children. What’s it been like to explore that alongside her?

FREEMAN: It’s been amazing. Daisy is an absolutely fantastic actor. She was really at the heart of the show. Very early on, it was clear. We saw several very good actors for that part, who were really good people. It was never always gonna be Daisy. But once it was Daisy, we were all very glad that we’d made that decision because I just don’t think there are that many people who could do what she can do, and be as light on their feet as she is, but also as deep as she can be and as truthful as she can be. She can do it on a dime. She has a very, very delicate touch, as an actor, that I respect a lot and I love. I enjoyed working with her tremendously. She’s the heart of the show.

Image via FX Networks

What is it like for Paul to have to deal with this bomb that Luke drops in his lap, with the pregnancy? Is there a bit of Paul that’s almost like, “Good, now you can experience how hard this is for yourself”?

FREEMAN: Yes. I don’t know whether that’s occurred to Paul yet, but I definitely think it will. Paul carries some guilt about the way that he has been with his kids, like a lot of parents do. At the very least, he might think there will at least be some understanding. He’s probably thinking, “Maybe now you’ll at least understand what I meant, or why I felt what I felt, or what I was going through. As well as being joyful, it’s very tough and scary and fury-making, being a parent. So, probably not yet, but I think that will be coming for Paul.

It’s so interesting to see the contrast between the relationship Paul has with Luke compared to the one he has with Ava. She feels like she can never really be in first place because Luke is just the chaos agent of the family. What was it like to explore that and to find that dynamic with her, at this age?

FREEMAN: We’ve always done Ava justice. Ava has always had an inner life that the audience gets to see, but Ava doesn’t feel like her family gets to see it, or she’s always just a beat behind Luke. That’s often the case, if you’re the younger sibling. I think that’s quite a usual or common gripe for younger people. They’re often like, “Why is my news never as important?” She’s about to tell us that, not only is she in love, but by the way, she’s also gay. She’s about to give us this bit of news, but it’s trumped by Luke becoming a father. A few times throughout the series, she has felt like, “Whatever I’ve got is not as important as his neurosis or his mental health. Sometimes, I just don’t give a shit about his mental health. What about my mental health?” That was one of my favorite things that she got to say in Series 3. When we were around the dinner table and we were talking about Luke’s mental health, Ava said, “I don’t care. I don’t care about it. I’ve got my own shit going on.” I thought that was a really good line because it was sharp and straight and emotionally truthful, and not what you would say in a medical pamphlet, but it is absolutely what you would think in real life. “I don’t care about your stuff right now because I’ve got my own thing.”

She’s always felt she had to fight her corner, but Paul and Ally never, ever consciously put Luke first. It’s just that Luke’s tribulations have been in a major key, and Ava’s are maybe in a minor key. Honestly, as often happens, if a human being looks like they can handle themselves a bit better, you think you’ve gotta look after the person who’s struggling a bit more. That was Ava’s complaint before. She was like,” You think I can handle it, but what if I can’t actually? What if I’m not coping as well as you think I am? I’m just not the person who has to cope. I’m the younger sibling, but I’m already the one who copes better with this stuff.” She’s had a bit of a sink or swim thing, as a lot of people do. You just get on with it and, as a result, you’ll be a much stronger person by the age of 30. But at the same time, going through it doesn’t always feel great. Like everybody else, she wants to feel like she’s been taken seriously and like she’s been listened to, which I think Paul and Ally always think they are, but she’s definitely been overshadowed sometimes by Luke’s traumas or illnesses, or whatever.

Image via Disney+

Along with talking about Breeders through the seasons, we’ve also talked about your appearances throughout the Marvel Cinematic Universe. When you found out about the opening scene in Secret Invasion, what was your reaction to learning that your character was a Skrull? Did you discover that the first time you red the script, or did they give you a warning that was coming?

FREEMAN: No, we had a conversation about it. Put it this way, I wasn’t playing anything in Black Panther: Wakanda Forever as a Skrull. I wasn’t thinking, “I’m a Skrull.” Secret Invasion and Wakanda Forever were definitely overlapping, chronologically, but I was never given a full definitive party line about, “This is the Gospel truth now.” I don’t wanna play Ross as a Skrull. I don’t wanna believe that he’s been a Skrull this whole time, so I don’t. That’s not what I’ve played. I’ve believed, all this time, in Ross’ integrity. I really enjoy playing Ross, as a Skrull or otherwise. But I’ve enjoyed playing him as an organic human man, so I don’t wanna lose him to Skrulldom. Ross, for me, is not a Skrull. But I was forewarned, before seeing a script. I was like, “Huh? What the fuck?!” Because then, you have to retrofit everything you’ve done and everything the audience thinks. As someone said, when Duke Ellington died, “If I don’t want to believe it, I just won’t believe it. It’s not true, if I don’t believe it.” So, I’m just gonna go with my own thing. I’ve played him as a human, so that’s what I believe.”

So, they haven’t told you what that means for your future in the MCU?

FREEMAN: No. I never think I’ve got a future in the MCU. I always assume I haven’t, which is the safest M.O. I think it’s the safest thing, given that I’m not one of the A-team in the MCU. I’m definitely on the subs bench. I’m a good little substitute. I can come on when needed, for about five minutes at the end of the game. I’m not assuming anything, that I have a future in the MCU. But whenever it happens, it’s a lovely bonus.

Image via FX Networks

Miller’s Girl also sounds like a really interesting project. What was your experience with Jenna Ortega like, on that?

FREEMAN: Great. She’s amazing. She’s extremely talented, super smart, great to work with, and very, very wise beyond her years. That was a real pleasure. The whole experience of shooting that was lovely. It was a nice little five to six weeks in Georgia. It was a lovely summer and fall, for a story that I really believed in. Jade Bartlett wrote and directed it. When I read the script, I was like, “Okay, that’s a gutsy script,” because it’s very uncomfortable and there are things in it which are not cut and dry, and not black and white. Certainly, there are conversations around it, at the moment and over the last several years, particularly. It comes into a world where those conversations are being had, slightly from left field, and says, “Yes, what about this?” It’s interesting.

How do you feel about where you left this family, now that you’ve said goodbye to them and finished the series?

FREEMAN: I feel really good about where we’ve left them. I think we’ve left them in a good state. Luke is with a woman he loves. They’re about to have a baby. They have supportive families around them. Ava has come out, and she’s supported, stable and relatively happy, but negotiating love, as we all do when we’re teenagers. Paul and Ally are in a pretty good place. Whatever hoops they’ve gone through, they’re in a very good place now and I think their marriage is as safe as it’s possible to be. We’ve left them all in a pretty good state, really. There’s a lot of love everywhere, and that’s ultimately all you can hope for. You don’t have to worry about any one person. They’ve found love, in various different ways. It’s ultimately very positive.

Breeders airs on Monday nights on FX and is available to stream at Hulu.