Editor’s note: The below interview contains spoilers for Our Flag Means Death Season 2.

The Big Picture

Jim Jimenez, a non-binary pirate in the show Our Flag Means Death, undergoes significant character development and becomes a skilled fighter and valued crew member. Season 2 of the show introduces new dynamics and relationships among the characters, including Jim’s relationship with Archie. Vico Ortiz, who plays Jim, expresses interest in exploring nontraditional relationships and an expanded polycule in a potential third season of the show.

No two characters in the Max series Our Flag Means Death, created by David Jenkins, are the same — not simply by virtue of what they look like or how they identify, but by their respective journeys that have played out over the course of the show’s now-two seasons (with a planned third and final hopefully to be renewed). Among the rambunctious cast on board the ship called the Revenge, led by Stede Bonnet (Rhys Darby), none have come into their own like Jim Jimenez (Vico Ortiz), who first started off the show in literal disguise in an attempt to hide their true identity. Now, the non-binary pirate has officially come into their own as a skilled fighter and valued member of the crew, although they’ve undoubtedly been changed by their experiences at sea too.

With Season 2 of the show now in the rearview, Collider was given the opportunity to speak with some of the series cast, including Ortiz, about their experiences filming and their characters’ memorable changes. Over the course of the interview, which you can read below, Ortiz discusses how they had to keep Jim’s new ‘do for Season 2 under wraps for months (a tricky balancing act, especially on social media!), as well as how Jim is changed by that dark time as a member of Blackbeard’s (Taika Waititi) crew early on. They also discuss Jim’s new relationship with Archie (Madeleine Sami), how things between Jim and Oluwande (Samson Kayo) stand, whether there might be room for a pirate polycule moving forward, and more.

Our Flag Means Death Release Date March 3, 2022 Cast Rhys Darby, Taika Waititi, Rory Kinnear, Con O’Neill Main Genre Adventure Genres Comedy, Action, Adventure, Biography Rating TV-MA Seasons 2

COLLIDER: I haven’t talked to you since Season 1!

VICO ORTIZ: I know! It’s been a second, and so many things have changed.

Chief among them Jim’s hair in Season 2. I spoke with Nancy [Hennah], and she said that David had actually brought her fanart of Jim, and that was what inspired the look, but I guess you had to keep it under wraps for a while?

ORTIZ: [Laughs] It was really funny because the second that they were like, “We’re going to chop your hair…” First of all, I was about to bleach my hair magenta right before the second season because I was like, “I’ll have a wig,” and then I arrived with my faded blue, and they were like, “Actually, we want to give you a mohawk.” What’s funny is that when we were filming the first season, and I started seeing the Blackbeard crew, I was like, “I wanna be with those guys.”

I was like, “Jenkins, I’ve had a mohawk before. I could do a mohawk later.” And then when it happened, I was like, “Oh, it’s actually happening,” but obviously not in the best circumstances, because when Jim goes into the Blackbeard crew, it’s not super voluntary, “Yes, let me join you.” It was so much fun to keep this under wraps because I knew the second they were going to cut my hair, and if I posted anything with my hair, everyone was going to know that Jim was going to have a new haircut.

I kept putting hats and beanies on every time I went outside in public — always with a hat on, always with a beanie, always with something covering my hair. I kept that for the duration of the filming. Then, right at the end, when we wrapped, I gave myself a re-zhuzh. I went to a barber, and I was like, “I want this haircut, but let’s give it a more modern look,” although it’s pretty modern already for what it is in the second season. But I remember being very intentional about being, “Oh, I’m getting a haircut now in December before the holidays,” even though I’d been rocking that haircut for months, because I wanted to be able to share stuff on social media that’s not going to be like, ‘Why is Vico getting a haircut in September…?’” So, it was fun. I was like, “Samba, you can’t post anything with me in my hair. I’ve got to make sure that we’re under wraps.”

Image via Max

I’m glad that you brought up Jim being forced into Blackbeard’s crew because that’s such a huge part of the beginning of the show and really strikes such a dark tone. A lot of the angst and violence and dark stuff happens at the beginning, so I wanted to ask you, how does that time for Jim on the Revenge really change them as a character?

ORTIZ: Jim, in the first season, starts off very closed off, and their identity is very tied to their own individual revenge. I know that I joke a lot about [how] they were assigned knives at birth, but truly, their identity was, “I need to take revenge. I need to find justice, and I need to kill anybody who’s in my way to get to that.” Then, through the first season, they realize, “Oh, I guess this doesn’t need to be this way,” and they start feeling seen and held and welcomed by this crew. Then all of a sudden, in the first few episodes of the second season, they almost have to force themselves into that survival mode again and that older version of themselves, but then now with this new awareness of what life can be.

Life doesn’t need to be just about survival, it can be about celebrating you and everybody else. So then you start seeing Jim, in those first few episodes, actively breaking a pattern of violence, because they’re familiar with this. They know how to tap into that older version, but they’re fighting against that. They’ve seen how Olu is tender, they’ve seen how Stede is curious and compassionate. How can [they] bring those elements into this chaos of violence and hardness that’s those first few episodes?

Even with all that’s happening, you see Jim having that story time with Fang, you see Jim choosing not to kill Archie. This is them breaking a cycle, and a really deep, embedded one. So, it’s really cool to witness them in that. That’s my character perspective on Jim on those first few eps. I remember at a convention [someone] was like, “What was the hardest episode to film?” And I was like, “Episode 2.” [Laughs]

Image via Max

Even when the crew gets reunited, there’s a bit of a divide still. How did that feel, to play those adjusted dynamics with characters that you already knew from Season 1?

ORTIZ: It was so much fun and so beautiful to see everyone kind of adjusting in that post-traumatic haze, almost. We know these people, we know that we’ve shared time with these people, but at the same time, we also shared time with Blackbeard, and then, all of a sudden, Blackbeard turned on us. So, it’s one of those, “Wait, how safe are we in this space?” It’s beautifully addressed in that episode. Obviously, it’s very quirky and fun, and there are the little bits and the triggers because Our Flag has this beautiful way of tackling topics with so much tenderness and humor, even though there are a lot of really dark topics as well.

It was really fun for me, even within all that traumatic space and moments, to find the humor within that and then finally reconcile and be like, “This is a safe space, and now we get to just be,” which then later gets done in “Calypso’s Birthday,” when we get to party and actually be with each other and celebrate who we are, which is kind of the pride episode. [Laughs]

Image via Max

Jim’s relationship with Archie is a really lovely surprise in Season 2. I wanted to ask you about finding that dynamic with Madeleine [Sami] as actors, not just in what’s on the page, but also in growing that relationship together.

ORTIZ: Mads is truly such a delight to work with. She’s so fucking funny and truly so easy to get along with. The second we met, we were very engaged with each other, and it felt like we were both like two golden retrievers. [Laughs] So truly, it was really fun to to meet Mads and work with them. I think in the beginning Archie was only supposed to be in a few episodes in the season, and then just having Mads with the crew — not just engaging with me — she literally fit and everybody was like, “Yeah, they should be here more. They should just be with the crew.”

It was really fun for me to see Jim interact with Olu and interact with Archie because they pick up from both these people, some of that softness and that tenderness that Olu has, and some of the playfulness that Archie has. They’re still kind of figuring out who they are outside of their revenge identity. It’s like they’re finally able to step into themselves without having the pressure of, “I must kill everybody in sight.” And it’s like, “Who am I? I like this softness. Oh, I like this playfulness,” and then just receiving that and allowing that to merge a little bit with who they are as they explore and come into themselves.

Image via Max

Speaking of a relationship that we see taking new shape, Jim and Olu, like you said, really evolve, as well, because the two of them have new partners this season, and then it becomes about figuring out how they fit in each other’s lives. Do you feel like they’ve moved on from each other as a romantic option? I talked to Ruibo [Qian] yesterday, and I was like, “Look, is there room for a whole polycule situation?”

ORTIZ: Oh, I’m so glad. I’m so glad you asked Ruibo about this. Here’s how I see it — this is me, Vico Ortiz, as someone who is in active pursuit of deconstructing and challenging all colonial structures and all aspects of human experience, whether it’s gender, sexuality, relationships, whatever, you name it. I’m either thinking about it or if I haven’t, I would love to engage in deconstruction, right? With that said, for me, Jim and Olu will forever be with each other in whatever shape or form or expression that looks like. Yes, their dynamic, like you very much said, from the first season to the second season, goes through a change, but I feel like that change opens up to an expansion and an understanding that, although they share this deep emotional connection, there’s always room for more. It might be a little bit messy, and it might be like, “We don’t really know what we’re doing, but we know we’re here for each other no matter what, and there are also other people that we’re interested in, and we want to explore that.”

I think I can say confidently, at least from me, from Mads, Samson, also Ruibo, we would love to explore a nontraditional way in which all of these characters interact with each other and their relationships. If we were given a third season it would be really fun to explore that, because there are many ways in which we express romance. There are many ways in which we express love and care, and it doesn’t need to be the one way. And what better place to explore that than in a pirate show? [Laughs] I think because Ruibo, Samson, Mads, and I were, outside of filming, like, “Oh my gosh, look at our polycule. Look at us, all babes,” and all that stuff, it was just naturally shown on-screen. There were some scenes that did not make the final edit that show a bit more of that understanding between Jim and Olu, and some of that tenderness that Jim and Olu share. So, I would love to expand on that more, for sure.

Our Flag Means Death is available to stream on Max.

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